Author Topic: Native Cocoa OSX version?  (Read 12617 times)

madmuggle

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Native Cocoa OSX version?
« on: July 14, 2006, 10:31:38 pm »

Is there ever going to be a native OSX version?  I hate this X11 emulated thing.  I heard that there is one planned for later this year, but I'm curious if that is true or not.

j0hnw

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Re: Native Cocoa OSX version?
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2006, 11:04:36 pm »
I second the call for a native Cocoa version. After having used Slickedit for years in the Windows environment, I recently took a job in an all OS X environment. I've been disappointed with the X11 version of Slickedit compared to the (native) Windows version.

Some of the problems I've had with X11 version and/or features what I'd like to see in a Cocoa version:

  • Wouldn't have to install X11. While it's not a major hassle, it's not the default OS X configuration. Plus it consumes at least 21M of additional memory when running Slickedit
  • The X11 fonts are horrible. They look pitiful next to the native, anti-aliased fonts of the other Mac apps. For the first couple of weeks, I swear the poor fonts gave me a headache
  • I miss being able to drag'n'drop files onto Slickedit and have them open
  • Response to the "Mighty Mouse" wheel is jerky, at best. Not fluid like Cocoa apps (or the Windows version with a wheelmouse
  • The X11 version has problems working with extremely large files (ie. > 15k lines) that I've never experience with the Windows version. The X11 version bogs down to the point it's almost unusable. And this is on a new 2.16GHz Dual-Core Intel Powerbook with 1GB of memory
  • I've had a few occasions when the cursor has stopped responding to input (key or mouse). Eventually, after repeated hits to the Esc key or the spacebar, it will start responding again.
  • The Multi-File Find occasionally locks-up if you try to browse directory history
  • I'd love to have Code Beautificaion for Objective-C
  • Same thing for Smart Paste -- would love to have it available with Objective-C
  • Code-completion/symbol lookup is poor and/or inconsistent with Objective-C (even having limited to base Cocoa  Framework tagging (ie. just  Fundemental, Core Data, etc)
  • The interface get's confused when running with an external monitor, and starts on the "local" screen -- rather than the external monitor. Will also open many dialog windows on "local" screen when the main app window is on the External monitor

I realize that the number of Mac users pales compared to the Windows users. It even pales compared to the number of "other Unix" users (like Linux). But I would counter that the Cocoa environment makes it easy -- even trivial in many cases to create a GUI. Therefore, hopefully the investment in a Cocoa native GUI wouldn't have to be that great.

I also hope to see the number of OS X users grow -- yeah, I know Apple evangelists have been saying this for years!!!  -- particularly as people realize that it's an "easy to use" Unix, and that the move to Intel processors opens ups some great "Virtual Machine" opportunities (e.g. Parallels http://www.parallels.com/)
   
       Thanks for listening,
       j0hnw
 

j0hnw

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Re: Native Cocoa OSX version?
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2006, 11:07:28 pm »

P.S Oh yes, one other feature I'd love to see is the use of the JavaDoc dialog for creating HeaderDoc and/or Doxygen comments in Objective-C code.

OK, I think that's it for the wishlist now...  :)

     j0hnw

madmuggle

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Re: Native Cocoa OSX version?
« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2006, 08:46:12 pm »

Biggest thing I'd like to see out of a native OSX gui is the ability to have multiple top level windows.  I can't stand the MDI/SDI interfaces and VS in X11 is the same way.  If I want to throw a window of code on one of my other monitors I can't do it without opening it in another program or another copy of VS.

And of course as you mentioned the font support is soooo awful that it truly makes it a pain to look at all day long.

Basically I'd like to see an Xcode or CodeWarrior type GUI with the ninja features of SE.  I've tried using Xcode, CodeWarrior, BBEdit, and just about every other IDE in the OSX world and I just can't use them.  The biggest thing missing in those is good auto complete (tagging, whatever) and all the code navigation, etc that comes with that.  Next is aliases and code templates.  Also I use VIM emulation so working in a BRIEF type editor is pure misery as well, lol...

So (begging here) please please please make a native mac version. :)

grubba

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Re: Native Cocoa OSX version?
« Reply #4 on: July 18, 2006, 04:50:16 am »
Yet another vote... I don't even care about the ugliness. Just make it work and better integrated. There is nothing for the Mac. Make it right and own the market. Xcode is an exercise in masochism designed by some sadistic soul. It's "pretty"... but so what? Useless...



jkwuc89

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Re: Native Cocoa OSX version?
« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2006, 07:20:37 pm »
I'll be moving to a Macbook or a Macbook Pro soon so count me in as another who would like to see a native Cocoa OSX version of SlickEdit.

garion911

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Re: Native Cocoa OSX version?
« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2006, 10:07:19 pm »
Having an OSX native version of SlickEdit would signifantly speed my development speed.. Right now, because its an X11 app, command-tab will not switch back to it... Normally I code in Slick, then command-tab to a Terminal.app window to test, and then I have to mouse click back to Slick. It would also be nice to have Slick as my default editor in general.. I currently have a version of TextMate for that, but I need my Brief bindings to stay sane...

And the idea of using Quicksilver with Slick makes me drool.......


Nathan

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Re: Native Cocoa OSX version?
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2006, 03:43:25 pm »
.. Right now, because its an X11 app, command-tab will not switch back to it... Normally I code in Slick, then command-tab to a Terminal.app window to test, and then I have to mouse click back to Slick.

Hey Garion,

I also like to switch back and forth between VS and Terminal. Command-tab works perfect for me, but I had to make a change.

In the default X11 install on macs, it also opens an xterm. When you command-tab to X11, X11 makes one of its apps active ... often the xterm, which is sitting behind everything else. Also, you might have noticed that if you command-tab from X11 to X11, you'll switch between X11 apps. It's not very convenient to have to switch from the Terminal to X11 to X11 when you just want to get to VS, but it works.

The solution for me was very simple. I just removed the "xterm&" line from the .xinitrc file in my home directory. Because I use the Terminal app rather than an xterm I don't lose any functionality and it works perfectly: Command-tab switches to VS when you select X11.

So, remove that line from your .xinitrc file and the next time you restart VS/X11 things should work better. In the meanwhile, you should get the same results by closing the xterm.

Nathan

garion911

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Re: Native Cocoa OSX version?
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2006, 04:47:20 pm »
I've already disabled that xterm (One of the first things I do when I install the X11 stuff), and it was still happening..

I did eventaully fix it by getting a copy of LiteSwitch (http://www.proteron.com/liteswitchx/), and enabling the "Bring all forward" option..

Now it works well, since Slick is the only X11 app I use.


jkwuc89

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Re: Native Cocoa OSX version?
« Reply #9 on: October 18, 2006, 12:34:02 pm »
I vote "YES" for a native Cocoa OS X version.  I have Windows and Linux licenses and would immediately purchase an OS X license if it were a truly integrated OS X application.

Kaiser

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Re: Native Cocoa OSX version?
« Reply #10 on: March 10, 2008, 04:31:51 am »
As much as I like Slickedit, I don't choose to use it on the Mac.  Given the availability of Textmate, Xcode, and Cocoa'ized Vim and Emacs implementations, it's very hard to stay with the X11 version.  OS X's text rendering is simply beautiful, and X sucks for a number of reasons.  It's a shame for SlickEdit, Inc., because the Mac seems to be emerging as the workstation of choice for non-Windows developers.  While a Cocoa version is a lot of work, it may well end up being a blessing in disguise: over the years Slickedit seems to have accumulated a lot of technical debt and swept it under the rug, and eventually the codebase will need a major overhaul.

Nathan

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Re: Native Cocoa OSX version?
« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2008, 07:43:26 pm »
Hey Kaiser,

I'm not sure if you're saying you like the fonts in SE or not, but we use XFT to render fonts (and have since at least v12.0.3.0). XFT provides anti-aliasing and you should be able to select any font on your system. While it's not using Quartz under the covers, it looks great and is a world apart from vanilla X's fonts. Just look in Tools > Options > Appearance > Fonts to pick your favorite fonts out.

I've attached an example.
Nathan


Kaiser

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Re: Native Cocoa OSX version?
« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2008, 09:09:36 pm »
Thanks for the tip, Nathan.  While freetype/Xft is much better than it used to be for grayscale font rendering, it's still not in the same level as OS X or Windows when it comes to sub-pixel rendering and font hinting.  I don't know why the hinting is so bad (even with the TT bytecode interpreter enabled) but the subpixel filtering suffers from some poor design decisions and a lack of integration across display stack creates odd corner cases.  I've found open source software to be prone to these kinds of integration problems, which is why I'd prefer to use a Cocoa'd SlickEdit.

jashan

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Re: Native Cocoa OSX version?
« Reply #13 on: June 10, 2008, 07:07:59 pm »
Hi there,

I just recently came across SlickEdit and since I've moved from Windows to Mac, I considered using SlickEdit as a partial Visual Studio replacement (partial because it lacks the UML support I have with UModel 2008 under Visual Studio). I will still use Visual Studio on the Mac under VMWare (Windows XP / Windows 2003 Server) for Web development and modelling, but having a nice native development environment for the Mac would definitely be very cool. And from the feature-set it looks like SlickEdit is well worth the money.

I almost bought SlickEdit right away because this feature-set really looks convincing - but fortunately decided to check out the trial first ... and oh my, was my disappointment big when I saw this ugly X11 interface. I hope I don't hurt anyone's feelings by saying this, but SlickEdit on Mac really reminds me of those old, ugly Solaris days I had at University. Side by side with the fancy Mac OS UI, an X11 application simply looks like a relict from the last century. Welcome to XEmacs (who needs an OS anyways) ;-)

So... are there any plans on porting SlickEdit to Cocoa?

I understand that this is probably a significant amount of work and you may have "more imporant things to do". But at the moment, SlickEdit on the Mac simply looks like some cheap open source product. That doesn't mean it's not high quality software under the hood (I'm sure it is) - but to me, it was like "ouch, remove this from my HD immediately". I'm afraid X11 and slick is an oxymoron to me, and it seems I'm not the only one. You can call me spoiled, if you wish - but when I code, I want something nice to look at. Functional, of course (not sure if X11 can be called that ... maybe it was 20 years ago) - but it should definitely not hurt my eyes.

So, for now, I'll stay with Visual Studio. But I'll keep checking back because I definitely would like to have SlickEdit for the Mac and maybe some day it will be available (I mean, a "real" Mac version)... Until then, I'm afraid the Mac is simply not useful for coding (C# ... if I was still doing a lot of Java, I might consider Eclipse which I think is as rather powerful IDE). Thank God we have VMWare and Parallels... Interestingly, unlike X11 apps, Windows XP applications look pretty sweet on the Mac (and they integrate just as well) ;-)

Sunny regards,
Jashan

Phil Barila

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Re: Native Cocoa OSX version?
« Reply #14 on: June 10, 2008, 10:13:20 pm »
If you are going to go to the trouble of running Visual Studio, the Windows version of SlickEdit looks just as nice.