Author Topic: A bunch of newbie questions from a Trial User moving from Eclipse  (Read 5436 times)

kitlomajama

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Hello there,

I've sent this these questions to the support website too, but I think for posterity I would also rather post them here.

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Is there now a way to limit the scope of tags to just the active project. As discussed here, http://community.slickedit.com/index.php?topic=418
Has any alternative been found?

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How do I use UTF-8 throughout for all my files? Am I expected to manually go through all the file extensions in the File Extension manager? More importantly, when I open a file as UTF-8 it uses the "Default Unicode Font", instead, I would like to use Deja Sans Mono. Let me make this simple.
I want to open, save, edit, etc ALL my files as UTF-8 rendered with the Deja Sans Mono font. How can I do this?

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When in Python mode, I do not want to add a space after the parenthesis. How do I do this? For example, I want "foo(bar)" and not "foo( bar )"

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How to combine delete-selection and delete-line in one keybind?

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How do I switch focus between the panel on the left and the main editor window?

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How do I mimic CTRL-Shift-T as it works in Eclipse? In SlickEdit, it seems to open the "Class" pane but this requires me to navigate... this is absolutely not what I want. Instead, I expect a modal dialog where I just type in the method/function, or class name and I reach the relevant bit of code

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In Python, push_tag goes to the "wrong" definition. For example, I have a "Foo" class in the "Bar" module and the "Baz" module; I expect it to ask me which definition I want to go to.




« Last Edit: December 19, 2010, 09:33:30 pm by kitlomajama »

kitlomajama

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Re: A bunch of newbie questions from a Trial User moving from Eclipse
« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2010, 03:31:55 pm »
How do I mimic CTRL-Shift-T as it works in Eclipse? In SlickEdit, it seems to open the "Class" pane but this requires me to navigate... this is absolutely not what I want. Instead, I expect a modal dialog where I just type in the method/function, or class name and I reach the relevant bit of code

I think I figured this one out:
gui-push-tag

kitlomajama

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Re: A bunch of newbie questions from a Trial User moving from Eclipse
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2010, 08:54:38 pm »
How do I switch focus between the panel on the left and the main editor window?
Let me elaborate on this. When I run push-ref, I would like my focus to automatically move to the References window. How can I do this? In general, how can I swap between the main Editor panel and the other panels? (i.e. References, Search, etc)

Sandra

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Re: A bunch of newbie questions from a Trial User moving from Eclipse
« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2010, 04:29:49 pm »
Quote
How do I use UTF-8 throughout for all my files? Am I expected to manually go through all the file extensions in the File Extension manager? More importantly, when I open a file as UTF-8 it uses the "Default Unicode Font", instead, I would like to use Deja Sans Mono. Let me make this simple.
I want to open, save, edit, etc ALL my files as UTF-8 rendered with the Deja Sans Mono font. How can I do this?

1.  Create a new Slick-c (.e) file by going to File > New. 
2.  Copy the following into your .e file.

Code: [Select]
#include "slick.sh"
#require "se/lang/api/ExtensionSettings.e"

using se.lang.api.ExtensionSettings;

_command void set_all_to_utf8()
{
   // get file extensions referred to standard extensions
   index := name_match('def-lang-for-ext-',1,MISC_TYPE);
   for (;;) {
     if ( ! index ) { break; }
     name := substr(name_name(index),18);

     ExtensionSettings.setEncoding(name, '+futf8s');

     index=name_match('def-lang-for-ext-',0,MISC_TYPE);
   }
}


3.  Load the file by going to Macro > Load Module and selecting your file.
4.  Run the command set-all-to-utf8 from the command line.  Now all your file extensions are set to use UTF-8.
5.  Go to Tools > Options > Appearance > Fonts.
6.  Select Unicode Source Windows from the list of Elements.
7.  Select Deja Sans Mono from the list of Fonts.  Click OK.
8.  You will probably have to close and reopen all open editor windows to see your changes.

ScottW, VP of Dev

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Re: A bunch of newbie questions from a Trial User moving from Eclipse
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2010, 04:33:25 pm »
I spoke with Support, and we decided to answer the questions here so that they might help other users.

Quote
Is there now a way to limit the scope of tags to just the active project. As discussed here, http://community.slickedit.com/index.php?topic=418
Has any alternative been found?

Currently, tags for your source files are stored for the whole workspace. So, if you have a workspace with many projects all of the tags for those projects will be in a single tag file. If you need to limit the scope, you can create other workspaces and add an existing project to it (Project > Workspace Properties, click the Add button). That workspace will then just have the tags for that one project. We are planning to address this as soon as we can, but it will not be in SlickEdit 2011.

Quote
How do I use UTF-8 throughout for all my files? Am I expected to manually go through all the file extensions in the File Extension manager? More importantly, when I open a file as UTF-8 it uses the "Default Unicode Font", instead, I would like to use Deja Sans Mono. Let me make this simple.
I want to open, save, edit, etc ALL my files as UTF-8 rendered with the Deja Sans Mono font. How can I do this?

Currently, the UI doesn't provide a way to do that other than an extension at a time. Sandra is going to post a Slick-C macro that will do that for you, though. As for changing the font, select Tools > Options, go to Appearance > Fonts and set "Unicode Source Windows" to the font of your choice.

Quote
When in Python mode, I do not want to add a space after the parenthesis. How do I do this? For example, I want "foo(bar)" and not "foo( bar )"

How are you entering the foo function? Are you picking from a completion list or are you typing the function name followed by the open paren? If you're typing it in, then auto-close could be inserting the close paren and the padding. Use the ... > Python > Auto-Close page to change that.

Quote
How do I switch focus between the panel on the left and the main editor window?
Each window in SlickEdit has an associated activate command, like activate-editor, to change focus to that window. You can use Tools > Options > Keyboard and Mouse > Key Bindings to look for commands and bind them to a key sequence. Type "activate" in the "Search by command" field to see all the commands with "activate" in the name.

To have push-ref put control in the list of references, set Tools > Options > Editing > Context Tagging, '"Go to reference" only lists references' to True. The default setting of False jumps to the first reference in the editor window.

Quote
How to combine delete-selection and delete-line in one keybind?

Can you give the specific steps you are trying and what the expected outcome should be? As far as I can tell, whenever I delete a selection, the lines within the selection are deleted. Are you saying that the text is removed but blank lines are left behind where the selection was? Which emulation are you using?












ScottW, VP of Dev

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Re: A bunch of newbie questions from a Trial User moving from Eclipse
« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2010, 04:38:17 pm »
Quote
In Python, push_tag goes to the "wrong" definition. For example, I have a "Foo" class in the "Bar" module and the "Baz" module; I expect it to ask me which definition I want to go to.

I confess that Python isn't my strongest language. Could you post a sample workspace that illustrates this issue. In C++ and Java, the languages I use the most, the Select Symbol dialog is displayed to resolve ambiguities like this. I can't say why that's not happening in this case.

kitlomajama

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Re: A bunch of newbie questions from a Trial User moving from Eclipse
« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2010, 05:23:45 am »
Thank you for taking the time to reply to my questions.

We are actually heavy users of Python, C++, and Java (in that order). I have evaluated (or atleast tried to) SlickEdit at various point in the last 3 years, but I always give up due to its rather steep "learning curve". However this time I am determined to give it a shot because I can see it is quite powerful.

*****
Sandra, the macro worked, thanks. BTW, for some reason Dejavu Sans Mono is unable to display French characters but choose Deja Vu Sans it works fine; weird. Anyway, its not a big deal.

*****
Quote
Each window in SlickEdit has an associated activate command, like activate-editor, to change focus to that window. You can use Tools > Options > Keyboard and Mouse > Key Bindings to look for commands and bind them to a key sequence. Type "activate" in the "Search by command" field to see all the commands with "activate" in the name.

Yes, I figured that much. However I don't want to associate a separate key-bind for each activate-* command. Instead, I believe the intuitive behavior would be to automatically switch focus to that commands window. Essentially, we need a keybind that toggles between "Editor" and "Last activate-* command's Window" (hope that made sense).

*****
Quote
Can you give the specific steps you are trying and what the expected outcome should be? As far as I can tell, whenever I delete a selection, the lines within the selection are deleted. Are you saying that the text is removed but blank lines are left behind where the selection was? Which emulation are you using?
I am using Eclipse emulation (but, modified past that). In any case, I would simply like th eexact same behavior that you just described. Right now, when delete-line only deletes a line even when I have a bunch of text selected. I recall it behaved as I wanted for a period, but then one of those pop-up windows came that asked me "Do you want to delete the line or the block" .. or something to that affect. And since then, I think I screwed up the setting and dont know how to revert it back

*****
The coloring for the sentence "variable" is wrong in the attached picture. Observe that "sentence" is local within the second list comprehension yet it is non-bolded.
http://imgur.com/awaYf

*****
In Python, or for any language, how can I "Create a function", or "Create a member variable" upon selecting relevant text?. For example, the following is a common scenario:
Code: [Select]
bind(some_gui_widget, some_callback)
After I write the above code, I would simply like to move my cursor over "some_callback" and invoke a "create-method" command that automatically creates the method in the most relevant scope. Heck, it doesn't even need to accurately capture the method parameters...

*****
In Python, or for that matter any language, how do I prioritize the order in which the Categories are listed during autocomplete?

*****
In Python, I've added all the *.py files as part of the python.vtg tag and built the database. However while coding in Python this doesn't seem to have made any difference! Even the most basic completions dont trigger when I invoke autocomplete. How so?
« Last Edit: December 21, 2010, 05:26:12 am by kitlomajama »

hs2

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Re: A bunch of newbie questions from a Trial User moving from Eclipse
« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2010, 11:24:35 am »
@kitlomajama: You can 'Macro>Set Macro variable: def_prompt_for_delete_code_block' and set it to '1' to restore the default behaviour of delete.
On SE cmdline you can also directly enter 'set-var def_prompt_for_delete_code_block'.

The toggle command between edit window and both tab groups (output + project) is not supported by default.
But there is a 'activate-output-toolbar' and 'activate-project-toolbar' command available.
So switching from edit win to tab group is fine. But going back to edits requires some macro extensions.
You might have a look at this macro module where I've implemented the toggle support time ago.
It would be nice if this would be officially supported e.g. by a smart 'activate-edit' command.

HS2

Edit: I've updated the attachment due to a minor improvement regarding the contained keybinding definition.
So you've to change it there in case.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2010, 11:44:45 am by hs2 »

ScottW, VP of Dev

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Re: A bunch of newbie questions from a Trial User moving from Eclipse
« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2010, 04:28:04 pm »
Quote
In Python, or for that matter any language, how do I prioritize the order in which the Categories are listed during autocomplete?

Sorry, we don't have a way to do that.

Quote
In Python, or for any language, how can I "Create a function", or "Create a member variable" upon selecting relevant text?
We don't have that capability.

Quote
In Python, I've added all the *.py files as part of the python.vtg tag and built the database. However while coding in Python this doesn't seem to have made any difference! Even the most basic completions dont trigger when I invoke autocomplete. How so?

SlickEdit uses 2 kinds of tag files: 1) workspace tag files for your source code and 2) library tag files for runtime libraries and third-party code (python.vtg, in this case). The difference in the two is that you are editing the first set of code while the second set is static.

You can see all the tag files by selecting Tools > Tag Files. Your workspace tag file is listed at the top under "Workspace Tag File". You will only see the tag file for the current workspace. You will then see a number of tag files for the various languages you have Auto-Tagged. These are the library tag files.

Always work in a workspace with a project, unless you are editing an isolated file. When you add your files to the project, SlickEdit knows to tag it and keep the tags up to date as you edit. Do NOT add your source files to python.vtg. To create a workspace and project, select Project > New. That will ring up the New dialog with the Project tab selected. There are two Python project types provided. Select one and fill in the rest of the info. When you click OK, the workspace and project will be created.

In languages like C/C++, you will have a separate project for each build target--a set of files that get built and produce a binary, like an executable or library. In languages like Java and Python, there isn't much reason to have more than one project in your workspace.

After you have created the workspace and project, you need to add files to it. Select Project > Project Properties and then select the Files tab. There are several buttons on the right hand side to add files. If you are working on code with other people who are not using SlickEdit, you may want to use Add Wildcard to specify a directory which is scanned to find new files. That will happen each time SlickEdit is launched. If you are working by yourself, you can just use Add Tree (or Add Files if the project is small).

If you create new files using File > New, the default is to add them to the project. If you use the e command to edit a file and then save it later, you will have to add that file to the project yourself--though Save As has a checkbox to add the file to the project.

Quote
I have evaluated (or atleast tried to) SlickEdit at various point in the last 3 years, but I always give up due to its rather steep "learning curve". However this time I am determined to give it a shot because I can see it is quite powerful.

Can you tell us more about why you think SlickEdit has a steep learning curve? The longer you use something, the harder it is to see it as a new person does. Have you looked at the User Guide? If so, was it helpful? What can we do to make it easier to learn how to use SlickEdit?

kitlomajama

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Re: A bunch of newbie questions from a Trial User moving from Eclipse
« Reply #9 on: December 21, 2010, 11:31:20 pm »
@kitlomajama: You can 'Macro>Set Macro variable: def_prompt_for_delete_code_block' and set it to '1' to restore the default behaviour of delete.
On SE cmdline you can also directly enter 'set-var def_prompt_for_delete_code_block'.

The toggle command between edit window and both tab groups (output + project) is not supported by default.
But there is a 'activate-output-toolbar' and 'activate-project-toolbar' command available.
So switching from edit win to tab group is fine. But going back to edits requires some macro extensions.
You might have a look at this macro module where I've implemented the toggle support time ago.
It would be nice if this would be officially supported e.g. by a smart 'activate-edit' command.

HS2

Edit: I've updated the attachment due to a minor improvement regarding the contained keybinding definition.
So you've to change it there in case.

Thanks, this requires a little effort I see...

kitlomajama

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Re: A bunch of newbie questions from a Trial User moving from Eclipse
« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2010, 12:10:11 am »
***
Quote
SlickEdit uses 2 kinds of tag files: 1) workspace tag files for your source code and 2) library tag files for runtime libraries and third-party code (python.vtg, in this case). The difference in the two is that you are editing the first set of code while the second set is static...

Thanks for the detailed response, I had accounted for most of the pointers mentioned. In any case, I am using "Add Tree" to add .py files related to the Python stdlib and 3rd party Python libraries (ie, wxWidgets, PIL, etc) to the python.vtg TagFile. I believe this is the correct way to do it.
But autocomplete still doesn't seem to work.

For example, when I type "wx.B<cursor_here>" and invoke autocomplete, I expect to see "wx.Button", "wx.Bind", "wx.BOLD", etc... but none of them appear.
Interestingly, push-tag seems to work correctly (thus implying that the files are getting indexed/tagged right?)

***
How can I make push-ref show the results in a modal dialog instead of a panel at the bottom? I think that would be far more intuitive. I mean, push-tag shows the "Select Symbol" results in a modal dialog, it would be great if push-ref had a similar option.

(Maybe you can add this as a Suggestion for the future?)

***
Quote
Can you tell us more about why you think SlickEdit has a steep learning curve? The longer you use something, the harder it is to see it as a new person does. Have you looked at the User Guide? If so, was it helpful? What can we do to make it easier to learn how to use SlickEdit?

Admittedly, I skipped the User Guide in the beginning. I am used to free editors where you just figure your way out via trial n error and googling. The User Guide is quite well written.
Having said that, I believe there are a lot of factors that deter adoption of SlickEdit. Let me try to enumerate some:

* It is waaay too configurable! I know thats one of its hallmarks, but it can easily scare a newcomer.

* Some obvious settings are hard to reach and figure out. For example, one of the first thing I normally do when working with any editor is set the Encoding to UTF-8. I wasn't able to find this after 20 minutes and came VERY close to giving up! Seriously, I admire the need for fine grained encoding control on a per file-extension basis... but mostly, I just want to say "hey, just treat everything as UTF-8"

* There are way too many panels, tabs, and general clutter in the default setting. Of course, this is a problem with most IDEs. They try to shove all the "richness of features" in the user's face but instead it ends up on overwhelming them. Maybe its just me, but I don't want my real-estate being taken up by these little panels. For example, I don't see the use for the "Defs" panel when instead gui-push-tag can work just as well. The "Standard Toolbar" is TOTALLY USELESS... you aim this software for seasoned programmers and then provide a BUTTON for "Cut", "Copy".. and "Print"!? When was the last time you needed to PRINT source code??
In summary, I kinda feel that SlickEdit UI is having bit of an indentity crisis... I can see the nobility in your motives to provide an out-of-the-box UI that "feels familiar", but you really have to take a step back and ask yourself if it makes sense for a setting to be part of the defaults.

* The emulation mode (at least for Eclipse) didn't seem thorough.. but thats ok. If I wanted Eclipse, I stay with Eclipse.

* Some rather common features are missing. Some I've listed in this thread. For example, inumerable number of times I will use a function/method before even declaring it. Therefore, I need a quick way to "Create method" in the appropriate scope. (I noticed you have a macro for creating a CppImplemention from a header file, so I don't see why you cant provide this feature).

* Oh, and the Symbol coloring. SlickEdit has the most comprehensive Symbol Coloring I've seen, thats great. But guess what, I have not been able to figure out how a "static global" variable or method can be made BOLD and ITALIC.
(Basically, I like my globals to be bold and my static variables to be italic... so anything that is global and static should be bold+italic).

That's all I can think of... I'll add more.

Apologise if I sounded harsh. Keep up the good work.

hs2

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Re: A bunch of newbie questions from a Trial User moving from Eclipse
« Reply #11 on: December 22, 2010, 01:27:53 am »
@kitlomajama:
You could undock the References toolbar and enable 'Dismiss on ESCape' in 'View>Toolbars>Customize' to get dialog like behaviour.
Sure the default setup demonstrates a selected set of all the features SE provides. But once you're done with your tailoring it should fit your preferences quite well. Thanks to the flexibility of SE and it's configuration possibilties you can avoid a lot of compromises. This might take it's time but provides best results. It's a professional, mighty tool you simply can't compare with all those freeware editors (except emacs, of course).

HS2

BTW The effort regarding the macro module is limited to edit and change the keybinding defines (top of file) and load it (Macro>Load Module) at the first place.

ScottW, VP of Dev

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Re: A bunch of newbie questions from a Trial User moving from Eclipse
« Reply #12 on: December 22, 2010, 04:56:52 pm »
@kitlomajama:
Thanks for the great feedback!

Quote
It is waaay too configurable!
Quote
I mean, push-tag shows the "Select Symbol" results in a modal dialog, it would be great if push-ref had a similar option.
I hope you appreciate the irony of saying we're too configurable and asking for a new option in the same post. I'm not sure I understand the phrase, "way too configurable". That sounds like "way too rich" or "way too good looking".  I'm not sure any of those are possible. I do understand "way too hard to configure", and I think that's what people really mean.

We've done our best to organize the options in a meaningful hierarchy and we provide a search field that should make it easy to locate most things. So, to find how to set files to UTF-8, just enter "UTF-8" in the "Enter search text" field and it will show you that the File Extension Manager is where you do that. We would appreciate any suggestions for how to better organize the options and make them easier to manage.

To address your specific request, all tool windows in SlickEdit can be set to be not dockable so that they pop open like a dialog. Right-click in the tool window's title bar and uncheck "Dockable". Or select View > Tool Windows > Customize, select a tool window and uncheck "Allow docking".

Quote
* There are way too many panels, tabs, and general clutter in the default setting. Of course, this is a problem with most IDEs. They try to shove all the "richness of features" in the user's face but instead it ends up on overwhelming them. Maybe its just me, but I don't want my real-estate being taken up by these little panels. For example, I don't see the use for the "Defs" panel when instead gui-push-tag can work just as well. The "Standard Toolbar" is TOTALLY USELESS... you aim this software for seasoned programmers and then provide a BUTTON for "Cut", "Copy".. and "Print"!? When was the last time you needed to PRINT source code??
In summary, I kinda feel that SlickEdit UI is having bit of an indentity crisis... I can see the nobility in your motives to provide an out-of-the-box UI that "feels familiar", but you really have to take a step back and ask yourself if it makes sense for a setting to be part of the defaults.
Yes, we try to look as much like other IDEs as possible. That's one way to lessen the learning curve. Plus, it is generally easier for a user to shut off an unwanted feature than to find a feature that is off by default. We try to present the features that we think will appeal to the broadest cross section of new users.

The Defs tab isn't really replaced by gui-push-tag. The Defs tab serves as an outline for your code, showing you all of the definitions in the current file. It makes it easy to find a symbol in the current file and jump to that location. gui-push-tag is about finding a symbol by name. The difference is that the first is like asking, "What's in this file?" and the second is like asking "What file is this in?". I LOVE the Defs tab and use it all the time. It's a great way to browse unfamiliar code, and there are scads of useful things in the right-click menu.

As for the Print button, all I can say is that I have over 2 dozen open feature requests for changes to our print capabilities. SlickEdit has 4 main ways of invoking functionality:
  • Menus
  • Icons
  • Key Bindings
  • Commands, via the SlickEdit command line

Some users prefer one mechanism; others prefer another. The beauty of SlickEdit is that anything that can be done via one mechanism can be configured to be done using another. If you don't like a particular icon, you can remove it from a toolbar. If you don't like toolbars, you can hide them.

Quote
* The emulation mode (at least for Eclipse) didn't seem thorough.. but thats ok. If I wanted Eclipse, I stay with Eclipse.
The Eclipse emulation is our newest. Can you provide more details on what is missing?

Quote
* Some rather common features are missing. Some I've listed in this thread. For example, inumerable number of times I will use a function/method before even declaring it. Therefore, I need a quick way to "Create method" in the appropriate scope. (I noticed you have a macro for creating a CppImplemention from a header file, so I don't see why you cant provide this feature).
These features are easy to provide for one person, but hard to provide in a general way. What is "appropriate scope"? Does it go in the same file? Should it prompt for a file? Where in the file does it go? Does it put in a stub? Does it define parameters? If so, does it change the name of the parameters? Should it use "myParam" kind of notation? Should we provide options for this? Or should it be template driven so users can edit the code that is produced?

We get a lot of criticism when a feature doesn't work the way a user wants it to. And it's hard to anticipate all the ways people want things to work. Personally, I like the suggestion. I'd like to see how we might do this in way that works for any tagged language. Maybe the template-oriented approach would work. I'll have to think about this some more.

Quote
* Oh, and the Symbol coloring. SlickEdit has the most comprehensive Symbol Coloring I've seen, thats great. But guess what, I have not been able to figure out how a "static global" variable or method can be made BOLD and ITALIC.
(Basically, I like my globals to be bold and my static variables to be italic... so anything that is global and static should be bold+italic).

The interface doesn't provide for something that is both italic and bold. I'm not sure why that is. I'll see if we can change that in the future. That's not going to make us too configurable, though, is it?  ;)

Quote
Apologise if I sounded harsh. Keep up the good work.
Not at all and thanks! My primary goal is to figure out how to make SlickEdit easy to use and easy to learn. I believe that when customers get frustrated, particularly if they are trial customers, they stop using the product. That means lost sales.

We spend a lot of time trying to figure out how make SlickEdit accessible to new users while facilitating the streamlined use by experienced users. We've got a ways to go, yet. But feedback like yours helps us make the product better. So, please keep sending it in.

kitlomajama

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Re: A bunch of newbie questions from a Trial User moving from Eclipse
« Reply #13 on: December 23, 2010, 07:48:11 am »
Quote
The interface doesn't provide for something that is both italic and bold. I'm not sure why that is. I'll see if we can change that in the future. That's not going to make us too configurable, though, is it?  ;)

I am probably missing something, but in the "Color and font attributes" section you could use Checkboxes instead of Radiobuttons?

I'll get to your other comments later since I have a new paper/conference deadline... btw, I haven't forgotten about providing you with the standalone example where symbol resolution didn't happen correclty in Python


ScottW, VP of Dev

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Re: A bunch of newbie questions from a Trial User moving from Eclipse
« Reply #14 on: December 29, 2010, 03:40:55 pm »
Quote
Quote
The interface doesn't provide for something that is both italic and bold. I'm not sure why that is. I'll see if we can change that in the future. That's not going to make us too configurable, though, is it? 
I am probably missing something, but in the "Color and font attributes" section you could use Checkboxes instead of Radiobuttons?

It's more than just a simple change to the interface. It has to do with the number of bits used in the stream markers. Please don't ask me to go into any more detail than that, but I do know it's more complicated than just changing those radio buttons into checkboxes.